The great deception is a propaganda which a devious section of the west is doing against the religion of Islam in all spheres of life. The gist of the propaganda is that Muslims are terrorists, savages, extremists, they do oppression against women and above all, they violate basic human rights.
The association of Islam and violence is a common misconception that the general Western public has been led to develop about Islam. Islam is “news” of a particularly unpleasant sort. Muslims are described as fanatics, irrational, primitive, belligerent, and dangerous.
In reality, this negative attitude is undeserved and is not based on solid facts. Halliday distinguishes two types of anti-Muslimism: a ‘strategic’ and a ‘populist’ variant. The first mentioned originates in the United States and is related to and fed by issues such as oil supplies, nuclear weapons, and terrorism. It dates back to the 1970s and is primarily the result of the OPEC prices rise, the Iranian revolution and the hostages crises of the US diplomatic personnel in Tehran, the bombing of the World Trade Centre in 1993, and the subsequent prejudiced analysis of these events by the press.
Although this type of anti-Muslimism can also be found in Western Europe, the populist anti-Muslimism is otherwise the predominant type in this part of the world. It has emerged as a reaction to and is concerned with issues related to the presence of Muslims in Western societies such as assimilation, integration, race, veiling and so forth. By doing so, they try to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. In recent years, this approach has led to the emergence of “Islamophobia”.
A survey by Jack Shaheen in his book, “Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies People”, found that the vast majority of Arab characters in 900 American films were outright racist characters. Images of common day life and ordinary Muslims in their countries are almost non-existent or distorted in the western media.
After 9/11 the terms “Muslim” and “Terrorist” became synonymous in many western countries. Since this event, many experts and activists in the field of human rights have warned of the escalation of Islamophobia and racism against Muslims in many western countries.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West. Nevertheless, the West has many stereotypes and misconceptions about Islam that are due to the media, prejudice, and ignorance. Islam is often looked upon as an “extremist”, “terrorist”, or “fundamental” religion. Many people hate Islam and do not want to acknowledge its true teachings. This “radical Islam”, a stereotype common to Western thought, portrays Muslims as fundamentalists or potential terrorists.
The media then develops a distorted image of Islam than Western culture. Adding to the fact that the media creates inaccurate ideas about Islam, the Western media is also very influential to its audience in making negative Islamic stereotypes, such as the assertion that all Muslims are fundamentalists.
The term “fundamentalist” is actually a term that is interpreted by the media. A fundamentalist, in fact, only represents a normal Muslim who follows his or her religion. Some biased reports come from negative images that have happened in the Muslim world in the past like the hijacking of airplanes by Palestinians, the occupation of the United States Embassy by students in Tehran, the fact that there are no democratic governments in most Islamic countries, and the Gulf War. For most of these events, the media has misrepresented them.
The media sometimes unintentionally blows things out of proportion, sometimes because of biased feelings toward Muslims. However, many positive developments in the Muslims world rarely go noticed. Some inaccurate representations of Islam are often due to the media’s incorrect representations of Islamic countries, such as jihad, or Islam women’s rights.
Another great misconception that exists is the truth about Jihad or “holy war” in Islam… The Quran (Muslim Holy Book) says “Fight for the sake of Allah to those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah (God) does not love aggression”. A Muslim is permitted to take up arms only as an act of self-defence. A Muslim has the right to defend his life, and his property.
The association of Islam and violence is a common misconception that the general Western public has developed about Islam. An example of this kind of misconception is that the Western media and some historians often say that Islam was a religion spread by the sword, meaning that Muslims went from one end of the world to the other forcing people to either convert or die.
For instance, what Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq, did in the Gulf War was not Islamic and totally wrong (to attack other people for no reason). But the media still makes reports about Islam and how Islam is made of war-crazed people. For example, to help, put things into perspective, Hitler was a person of the Christian faith. This does not mean that all of his actions were consistent with the Christian beliefs. Likewise, Saddam Hussein is of the Islamic faith, but all of his actions do not necessarily represent Islam. So you can see that the media’s reports about “war-crazed Muslims” are incorrect.
As well as creating inaccurate images about Islam, the Western media usually identifies Islam in Muslim conflicts. The media hardly points other religions out in their conflicts. For example, the news would say, “Five Israelis may have been shot, but they were shot by five Muslims”, instead of saying “Five Israelis were shot by five Palestinians”.
The media often reverses this action when a conflict is against Muslims, for example the news would usually say “Bosnians are being killed by Serbians”, but instead rarely say, “Muslims are being killed by Christians”. In addition to the media’s inaccurate representations about Islamic conflicts, human rights of women in Islam, such as women veiling and women authority are big topics that Western media often confuses and misinterprets.
The media often represents Islam as a male dominant religion where Muslim men have complete authority over all groups of people. The media often says that Islam discriminates against women, and that women have no power or authority. However, it is ironic of what the media represents, that the Prophet Mohammed was one the greatest reformers for women. In fact, Islam probably is the only religion that formally teaches women’s rights and finds ways to protect them. When Islam is practiced correctly, it becomes the best example of an equal gender society.
As Islam came around, traditional pre-Islamic roles of women were replaced by new Islamic roles that women followed. Islam allowed women to have the right to be educated and the right to participate in political, economical, and social activities in their community. This created upward mobility in their communities. Women were also given the right to vote, something the U.S. did not allow until 1919.
Women were given the right to inherit property and take charge of their possessions. While most of these rights are denied to Muslim women today as a result of cultural tradition, one should not associate this with Islam, because they do not correlate with it. Islamic women wearing veils is a commonly misunderstood concept in the West. Westerners often think that this is a harsh custom that Islam requires of women. Westerners often say these women have no freedom or dignity for wearing these veils.
But in fact, these veils actually help protect women and help them remain in chastity. In Islamic societies there are very few rape cases and AIDS victims as opposed to the Western societies, where there are thousands of rape cases and AIDS infected victims a year. But in some countries, like Saudi Arabia, women are forced to wear abbeys (floor length veils). Such excessive forms of these kinds of dress are not mentioned in Islam. Islam requires women to wear a veil for their own safety, but if a woman chooses not to wear it, it is her choice and it is between her and her God. God will do anything He wants to her in this world and the after.
What I am saying is that negative images of Islam are very much more prevalent than any others, and that such images correspond, not to what Islam “is” but to what prominent sectors of a particular society take it to be. Those sectors have the power and the will to propagate that particular image of Islam, and this image therefore becomes more prevalent, more present, than all others.
John L. Esposito’s book, The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality, states the question, is Islam a threat to the West? He tells us that the answer lies in the West’s views. He says that if the Western powers continue to defend the unjust status of the Middle East in the name of an illusory or fleeting stability, Islam will be a threat. “But if the Western powers begin to appreciate the legitimacy of grievances in the Middle East, the West and Islamic movements will get along peacefully”.
With the Western media’s spotlight and some Western governmental attitudes, the West is a place where Islam is a name of negativity. The Western media has contributed a great deal to this negative image of Islam. The media often misrepresents and inaccurately explains Islam and its manifestations public gets. Sometimes the media seems to be biased against Islam. When the media distorts the image of Islam, the general public tend to believe it, because the media is a major source of information to them about Islam.
This ignorance that the West accumulates from the media leads them into making stereotypes about Islam and associating all Muslims and Arabs together. The West often times views Islam as “fundamental” “extremist” or “discriminatory”, but all of these terms have been manipulated, purposely because of biased feelings and or because of ignorance, by the media to present a negative image of Islam.
Islam is actually a peaceful and fair religion that most often does not correspond to how the media portrays. As Islam grows more and more in the West, Westerners will eventually learn the truth about Islam and find out that these negative stereotypes are incorrect. As more people follow Islam, the media will start to learn about it, understand it, and report about it in positive ways.
View Comments (19)
Islam is the 'great deception', denying both the crucifixion and deity of Jesus christ, the only name given by which we might be saved.
Ayesha Sethi, must a Muslim woman be present at the signing of her own marriage contract?
Does a woman's testimony have equal weight with a man's in sharia law?
Does a daughter inherit the same amount as a son in sharia law?
What is the difference between how a Muslim woman divorces her husband versus the husband divorcing a wife in sharia law?
Can a Muslim woman marry a Jewish or Christian man in sharia law? Can a Muslim man marry a Jewish or Christian woman?
(Correct answers: No; no; no; husbands may summarily divorce, women must petition a cleric; no; yes)
Islam is a religion of misogyny. Why should women have a positive image of it?
Answer # 1: It's a woman's prerogative. If she wants she can sign her marriage contract herself or she can give a power of attorney to someone else to sign on her behalf.
General misconception: Muslim women can't sign on their own marriage contract.
Answer # 2: Please consult this link for its answer http://goo.gl/Obgisg
Answer # 3: Consult this link for its answer http://goo.gl/CLiH4B
Answer # 4: By default a husband has the right to give divorce while a woman can ask for a divorce or go to court to get one if husband refuses. The rationale behind this is simple, generally a man earns and provides for the family which gives him this right. However, in a marriage contract, a woman can write whether she can have a right to divorce or not. If she does, she too can then divorce her husband just like he could do. The marriage contract is like any other contract where you can write rules and regulations that both parties have to agree upon. Simple.
Answer # 5: A Muslim man can marry a Jewish or Christian woman and a Muslim woman can not marry a Jewish or Christian man.
I hope this helps.
Answer #1 should better read: A woman can sign her own marriage contract if she wants. Her wali (Muslim male guardian) is required to sign the contract or the marriage is not sharia valid.
I do not ask other people to consult links as my answer to their questions. Summarize your links, tell what your opinion is and state whether it is considered a majority or minority opinion. Then I will respond.
Answer #4 should read: By default a husband has the right to summary divorce at his whim while a woman must ask for a divorce or go to court to get one if the husband refuses. The rationale makes no difference because it is an unequal law. If a woman is smart, she will bypass this issue by having the right to divorce stipulated in her marriage contract, because otherwise she is up a creek without a paddle.
At least answer #5 is honest about the fact that Muslim men have more rights in choosing a marital partner than women. The reason for this is that taking breeding women from another religion weakens that group and puts more reproductive power in the hands of Islam. This is also the reasoning behind the kidnapping and sexual slavery dangers that plague many non-Muslim communities that live near Muslims.
Well done Ayesha Sethi, you have pretty well encapsulated muddle headed thinking and proved in your own words why Islam finds it impossible to discuss or debate rationally. First Islam and Muslims are two very different topics. Most Muslims do not follow Islam - they follow a version of lite Islam. I doubt that most have read the Koran.
Second, there is everything in the history of Islam that is about conquering and enslaving. And it is going on right now - all around the world.
So tell me what part of the Koran and the life of Mohammed that ISIS and the Salafist have wrong? Which part of the Koran are they misquoting to justify the slaughter around the world? Also while you are at it tell me that you don't mind if Muslims decide to become Christians. And that the Shia are Muslims
and you would allow your daughter to marry a Christian is she so wanted.
Finally if Islam is so good - why are all - yes all the countries - such monumental social, economic, cultural, and technical disasters? (except the ones that employ Westerners or Chinese to run the place)
Thank you JohnJ, for putting this so succinctly. I am guessing she will not answer your questions.
Yep. She is standard issue. There are no facts in Islam there are just emotions and the Koran. What that means in the real world is power. So Islamic countries are all about power of a dominant group - one tribe. That gives truth to everything. That is why discussion, rationality and of course democracy will never work. That is why they never actually discuss an issue. It is impossible. A fact is just part of the emotional landscape. A corollary is that is why every one of their societies is backward, tribal and unable to adapt unless they hire the new slaves - the expats. If they are not in the dominant tribe, then the alternative is to Hijr - migrate ( refugee!) to a non Muslim country. Hence Europe (good one Merkel).
I did not even try to reason with her. The only discussion that you can have is those questions. Then they either completely ignore the questions, refer to the Crusades or never reply.
Personally speaking, the problem is not the Muslims as they are very easy to understand once you grasp their 'logic', it is the fellow travelers, the sympathetic, the understanding academic, the duplicitous politician - all of whom are pig ignorant of Islam and what Muslims actually mean when they talk.
JohnJ you have talked of rationality and logic so before arriving at a conclusion one must judge the both sides. I urge you to see things impartially rather than repeating the same mantra that is often presented in media. After all you have got reason and a thinking mind to duscern things not superficially but beneath the crust where lies answers to many if the questions:
1. You have talked about the kind of Islam that ISIS is presenting. The reality is muslim clergy and leadership has unanimously called their acts unislamic, reprehensible and disgusting. They are neither muslims nor humans. Yes they are doing out of extreme retaliation and frustration that US has brought havoc to the lives of the Iraqis. The kind of tyranny and oppression done to prisoners in US detention cells evident in even Hollywood movies as well. And this type of retaliation has been there in reaction to every oppression in human history. So ISIS is the product of such US aggression.
2. Most great religions have elements of tolerance because they speak of humanity, the common origins of mankind, divine justice and a humane order for all. Violence does not flow from religion alone - even bigoted religion as well. After all, the greatest horrors and killing machines in history have stemmed from the Western secular ideologies of fascism and communism.
Shokran Ya Ahmed. OK - here is a lesson in discussing. What you do is take each point that I raise and show a counter example.
Your reply did none of that - and just like Ayesha this illustrates the real danger of Islam. It is the complete inability to discuss the issues, the facts and come to a conclusion. The West's enormous progress is because of this ability and Islam will destroy it.
I made specific points and your reply is that "The reality is muslim clergy and leadership has unanimously called their acts unislamic, reprehensible and disgusting" First that is the usual play on words - there are plenty of Clergy who do support the Takfiri both now and over 1400 years - such as the ones supporting Al Qaeda, and ISIS right now..... and any way, so what?
Show me where ISIS get it wrong. Which quote from the Koran and hadiths that they use to justify rape, slaughter, beheadings, stonings, invasions, slavery ( and the odd tossing off of buildings - as you know they have problems with that as the Tafiri are supposed to be against the minarets).....is wrong?
The clergy are terrified of the Salafi and Takfiri exactly because of this. They are doomed and they know it. They cannot show one item of proof that ISIS does not represent devout Sunni Islam straight from the perfect life of Mohammed. I assume you are Ahmadi - and as you well know most Muslims don't ever recognize you.
Ahmed, a few years ago when no one knew about Islam you could get away with these ad hominem, circulus in demonstrando and non sequiturs, but those days are gone.
Okay John, you seem to have a fair amount of understanding of Islam and Islamic history, so I won't go into the nitty gritty explanations.
I'll just ask you this question the answer of which will help us go further in this discussion.
Since you emphasize that ISIS and Al Qaeda, are following the exact Islam (or Sunni Islam as you call it) and what ever they do is exactly as written in Quran and Hadiths, could you please quote such Quranic verses and Hadiths that preach such things?
Given your tremendous emphasize on this point, I assume you know (have studied) those specific verses and Hadiths that brought you to this conclusion that whatever ISIS et al are doing is exactly what's advised in Quran and Hadiths.
Unless it's just a point you have learned to get an upper hand in such discussions? I'll assume the later if you don't present your claim with some solid evidence.
Let's see.
P.S: If you ask me to produce such verses and hadiths then frankly I don't find any such things in Quran and Hadiths that would call upon Muslims to resort to such terrorism.
The burden of proof lies on you.
Nice. So although I did actually ask what of the Koran and the hadiths that ISIS quote incorrectly. Which every - yes EVERY Muslim refuses to answer ( including you?)
However let us start with the ISIS favorite. 9:5 - which as you obviously know abrogates every other item in the Koran before this chapter was 'revealed'. In essence it says "Kill ( slaughter) the Mushrikeen ( that is me and most of the people reading this) where ever you find them" I can give it to you in the original Arabic if you like. It is very clear. I can give you it in context. But that is what is says.
Is it wrong? Is there another interpretation.....Bidah!
Do you want others? as for Hadiths and commentaries just read anything by Shahih Bukhari - he is pretty clear. Or conversely read Dabiq. ISIS are very good with their quotes. Find one that is wrong. As I actually said at the very start.
Have we gone the next step in "our discussion"? Ya Malik try this type of argument with a fool.
Unfortunately Malik Kasheef, the people in the West are now reading the Koran and the life of Mo and realize how violent duplicitous, illogical, manipulative, and vicious it is. For those people reading this who would like to make up their own mind - just read the Koran, it is free online.
First of all, I don't understand why you're trying to say these Arabic words, "Ya Malik" and "Shokran Ya Ahmad"? Do you think all Muslims are Arabs?
Just in Pakistan there are over 200 million Muslims while the whole Arab countries comprise of 366 million population (including all the Christians and other religions).
There are a lot more non-Arab Muslims than Arabs. But you seem to consider all Muslims as Arabic speaking. This somehow shows your preconceived idea of how Muslims are.
Secondly, my name is clearly written and it's not "Kasheef". Don't be so consumed in your own ideas and thoughts. Try to pay attention to others. Read and Listen with open eyes and ears.
"Read" by the way, was the first message of Quran.
Anyway, having cleared these two points, I'll now answer your statement about chapter 9 verse number 5.
You are way off, partially informed, and have taken this verse of Quran out of context. If one says, "there is no God, but Allah" and you quote the first part of the sentence "there is no God" then it would be very wrong.
Even if you hear someone say, "there is no God" then it's compulsory to ask that person what exactly did he mean? You have to understand the context in which this sentence was said. Context matters and it changes the meaning of words.
But I am sure you already know all this. So let's get on with the specifics of this verse you mentioned.
First of all, please watch this 5 minute video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MoRTfS75X8
Secondly, you don't have to present the Arabic to me. I'll give you direct link to Quran and its translation of the same chapter 9 which is called "Chapter Taubah (meaning Repentance)".
http://quranexplorer.com/Quran/
When you open this link, please select the translation of "Eng Mufti Taqi Usmani" (who by the way is a renowned Sunni scholar) and read the translation of the chapter from the start.
His translation is important because it gives, in addition to translation, commentary of each verse to explain the context in order to know what is being said and why.
If you truly are interested in taking this discussion any further then you'll read that and get back to me.
As far as your claim that Hadiths ( such as book of Sahih Bukhari) are full of teachings where Prophet Muhammad preaches ISIS like violence, you again didn't provide any reference like you did with 9:5.
Here is one lesson in discussion from my side. When you're in an academic discussion, you don't arbitrarily claim things like 12 year olds, you present solid proof. Next time, back each of your claim with a proof. No wild goose chase.
It is pointless if you do not answer the original question and another example of the overly verbose slip and slide and excuses you guys have to do. At least the Arabs say it outright. Tell your bearded mate that the muzda "qtl" means kill/slaughter in classical and current Arabic. Ask the Arabs.
I should add just to nail this closed. I actually don't care what you or your mate thinks the Koran says. It is the millions who believe it as ISIS, Wahhabis and the Salafis do that count, They do the killings in 80 countries around the world, calling out Allahu Akbar every time. If they get it wrong - then tell them - not me. If they are the ones pretending to be Muslims - tell them. Get your bearded mate and the rest of you 'moderates, to go and let them know they are completely wrong. Good luck.
Ya akhee jhonJ forget about King Kashif, let me ask you a question which infact also carry answer to your questions mentioned above.
1. Should I ask the ISIS what they think about Islam or why they made AllahoAkbar their battle-cry or should I ask their mentors who trained and indoctrinated their leadership like Haji Bakr or the so called caliph Abu Bakr Albaghdadi in camp bucca Iraq! (For your information all the ISIS current leadership is graduated from camp Bucca Iraq.)
OR
Should I ask your questions from those takfiris or Salafies who were trained by their western handlers in the mountains of Afghanistan and equipped with Israeli bought weaponry!? (For your kind information those trained Takfiris and Salafies after the fall of Soviets later on served greater agenda known as war on terror.)
You can ask the lot.
But implying that this is the fault of Israelis or the West is just nonsense. They and you are not victims. They and you make choices. For 1400 years this type of fundamentalism has been going on. The current crop are in over 80 countries. When you guys blame Israelis or USA you don't even realize that you are giving them superhuman abilities. They did not train all the Wilayats and the rest: Boko Haram, Deobandis.. all the Jihadis attacking in Paris, Riyadh, Sydney,San Bernardino, New York, Brussels..... NONE are trained by Israelis or the West. What do they have in common? Islam. It has nothing to do with training - it has everything to do with belief.
You,and all your Muslim mates will never answer the question. What have ISIS and the rest of the Takfiris quoted incorrectly when they slaughter us?
Dear “akhee”(Arabic) Jhon; the answer to your question can be very long but I hope you will read it to the end.
First of all let me explain the meaning of Islam which I think you are not very much aware of, Islam is derived from the Arabic word salam which means peace “ peace acquired by submitting your will to almighty allah(God).
The power of the mass media can do wonders, it can change Black into white a hero into villain or villain into hero; we all know that so solute to media and people like you.
I don’t have your message in front of me right now but I read it yesterday and will try to answer it in a complete way as I can but If I forget to answer something pardon me in advance as it is an ongoing conversation(hopefully).
Muslims unfortunately are like Jews of Second World War or Christians at the time of Christ, who must follow lite version of Islam because if you try to live with the full version of Islam then they are labeled fundamentalist. In addition, sometimes even terrorist or extremists as you know the word terrorist fundamentalist or extremist is synonymous to Muslim or Islam.
This discussion can be very long and frustrated as I have answer for every query toward Muslims or Islam but let’s go to chapter 9:5 (which is sorah towbah, verse 5).
The verse 5 exactly says, “Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
If you open the Quran this verse is there, but what you don’t understand or you don’t want to understand or only follow the media which I mentioned can make a black into white; I meant it take Islam and Quran out of context like this verse.
Now let me prove it to you.
there was a peace treaty between the muslim and mushrikeen of mecca at that time which was deliberately broken by mushrikeen and were helping a third party to besiege muslim towns and kill the muslims.
This surah(or chapter) came at that particular time and Allah is giving ultimatum to mushrikeen of mecca that either you put things straight in 4 months as mentioned in the above verse or we will wage war on you. Now to boost the morale of Muslims(at that time) Allah says whenever you find a mushrek on battle field kill, capture and besiege him and ambush them.
Every General to his soldiers will say that. Have you seen a General who order his troops that when you see an enemy hide from him or try to Kiss his Ass when you can? The answer is big FAT no!
So this is out of context because here the context is battlefield it further elaborate it context is verse 6 which you people jump of hassitate to bring it forth but let me do the hard work and bring it forth. Also it start in verse 4
Verse 4 say kill those who oppose you, “Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious)”
but off course who have time to read 4 before 5 no one should be blamed in this regard because the goal is to label a religion and if you go by full context them the message is vague because Islam teach intolerance
now let’s go to verse no 6 which have the answer to your questions it says,
“And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.”
Have you seen a military general who ask his troops that on Battlefield if someone lay down his arms or seek protection grant him one. It does not only asking to grant him(enemy) protection if further say escort him to a protected place. Now this is called religion of Peace.
Was this option available to people of Herishima, Nagasaki, Germany, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. etc. etc.
Now if a western General ask his troops to kill a particular enemy for e.g let suppose Russian and he says kill all Russian on battlefield if you came across them; and I then say “western general said kill all the Russians” it will be out of context.
So my friend Jhon next time when you mention something to someone regarding a religion and in this case islam first read it yourself and don’t follow the media please.
Kind regards
I can read Arabic and I have plenty of versions - it is very clear and no amount of explaining it away with pseudo historical references makes any difference. What you believe makes no difference.
You well know that is what the millions of Muslims do believe. The Salafis, Tafiri including Deobandis, Wahhabis, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the rest of the motley crew around the world as well as innumerable Clerics and Islamic 'experts' throughout history.
So tell them.
Don't waste your breath on me. Personally I'd prefer if I didn't have to know, but courtesy of your Muslims friends it is forced on us in every country and every day.
It's your religion - fix it up.
There are many in the secular West who don't wish to submit to any invisible deity and don't want their lives to be ordered by invisible deities. That is the cause of the difficulties we face with our recent arrivals from the Muslim world.
JohnJ I am waiting for your answer.